The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  industrious on Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:03 pm

We don't need to be good guys. We just have to be less bad than the other guys. I mean, Nicodemus and Marcone (and if he can swindle it, Sanya) against Tessa and portions of the Circle. Nicodemus doesn't like the Circle. Mostly because he has a strict plan on how the world is going to end, and he doesn't want anyone to mess it up.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  draxx on Sun May 01, 2011 4:15 am

The Circle don't want the world to end. They've got better things to do then waste time with that. They just want to be free to pursue their own projects without any interference. Admittedly, these projects are mostly questionable or outright evil, but they figure that's their business, and nobody should have the right to show up and make demands.
However, all the big power blocs like the White Court make this impossible, so their goal is to destabilize them enough so that they are no longer cemented in their authority, and cause the collapse of the order in the Supernatural world.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  Cracklord on Sun May 01, 2011 8:32 pm

Oh, so we are using the evil council? With their vague, loosely defined plan?
Master Pain Betty: It is EVIL. Nnng...it is so EVIL! It is a bad, bad plan...that will hurt many... people...that are good. I think it's great that, 'cause it's so bad!
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  draxx on Sun May 01, 2011 10:30 pm

Take your dislike of the later Dresden books and go somewhere else, heretic.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  industrious on Sun May 01, 2011 10:36 pm

Either way, they represent something that isn't in Nicodemus's final plan. And thus, he doesn't want them in the picture.

Also, we do know that the Black Council has ties to the Outside. And the Outside is Lovecraftian horror.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  draxx on Sun May 01, 2011 10:39 pm

Well, lite-Lovecraftian Horror. I mean, if their machinations can concievably be thwarted, if our struggles can have any chance, if our mere existence does not hinge on the fact they haven't bothered to notice us, then it really isn't Lovecraftian Horror, is it? But same principle, I suppose.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  Cracklord on Sun May 01, 2011 10:56 pm

draxx wrote:Well, lite-Lovecraftian Horror. I mean, if their machinations can concievably be thwarted, if our struggles can have any chance, if our mere existence does not hinge on the fact they haven't bothered to notice us, then it really isn't Lovecraftian Horror, is it? But same principle, I suppose.

This. The idea that we can somehow slay Lovecraftian Horrors is laughable. We might, one day, ascend to their level, if we are capable of processing the means, and they don't, with a single, thoughtless twitch, destroy us and our planet first, but we cannot destroy them as humans. And the universe still won't care. Dread C'thulhu dies cold and alone, never waking up and getting to destroy the world. Keep that in mind.
Which is why Steven King is pretty much the only guy who can take off where Lovecraft left it. Because an irrelevent protagonist incapable of changing things makes for good horror, but not much else.
Of course, if you don't want to write Horror, you shouldn't include Lovecrat in the first place, but that's another story.

draxx wrote:Take your dislike of the later Dresden books and go somewhere else, heretic.

Oh, look, I hit a nerve. I'm right and you know it.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  industrious on Sun May 01, 2011 11:21 pm

Blasphemy. Dead Beat is much better than Storm Front or Fool Moon.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  Cracklord on Sun May 01, 2011 11:30 pm

Deadbeat is where it peaked, yes. Proven Guilty was acceptable, but it was about on level with Fool Moon or Gave Peril, and the books around it were nowhere near it's standard. Mostly, it's all down hill from book seven.
Small Favor in particular. Nicodemus is acceptable, but the rest of the denarians go from individual, powerful and dangerous men, made of the best assasains, warriors and magicians they could tempt over hundreds of years to...
well, one step above cannon fodder.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  industrious on Mon May 02, 2011 12:08 am

I'd note that a lot of them were killed by a) surprise, b) the Hellhound, who probably used some sort of special rounds to do it and c) were working with magic that bound most of their powers due to that containment spell.

But yeah. That wasn't too fun for me as well
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  Cracklord on Mon May 02, 2011 12:12 am

Yeah, well, the average Black Court newborn flunky gave him more trouble. Keep that in mind.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  industrious on Mon May 02, 2011 12:15 am

...don't remind me. Crying or Very sad

But Tessa was fairly awesome enough, I suppose.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  Cracklord on Mon May 02, 2011 12:19 am

She was adequate. She had powers, and was smart enough to know how to use them effectively, unlike almost all the new badguys (especially Kukulkan). And apparently she pulled a fast one on Nicodemus, which is pretty impressive, though he wasn't on the ball in 'Small Favor' so perhaps it was just an off-day.
But there is nothing really defining about her. Nothing about her that distinguishes her as more then a generic badguy.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  industrious on Mon May 02, 2011 12:54 am

I see your point. I liked Rosanna better, I suppose.

Also, I know exactly who should play Nicodemus: Christopher Waltz.


Last edited by industrious on Mon May 02, 2011 12:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  Cracklord on Mon May 02, 2011 12:56 am

And that. That too.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  industrious on Mon May 02, 2011 1:04 am

I didn't realize how perfect he was until I rewatched a few scenes from Inglorious Basterds.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  Cracklord on Mon May 02, 2011 1:14 am

Yeah. Perfect dichtotomey of smiling, charming evil. Though maybe a lesser known actor might work better, or a more classical one. I've always imagined a shakesperian actor who practices as Richard III and Iago would be best for that sort of role.
And lesser known actors sometimes define their roles better. I mean, Jamey Sheridan was so good as Flagg I can't imagine anybody else playing him now, and he's practically an unknown.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  industrious on Mon May 02, 2011 1:24 am

It's all about the presence. And the only actor I've seen theater's go quiet at whenever he walks on screen is Waltz. I mean, not a word or whisper. If anyone else can do it, then more power to them. But I haven't seen anyone else that can.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  Cracklord on Mon May 02, 2011 1:32 am

Depends on the theatre, I suppose. But I do see your point.
If I were picking him out, i'd go for an unknown because i'd want the audience to judge the character on his own merit, not bring their preconceptions onto it.


Last edited by Cracklord on Mon May 02, 2011 2:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  industrious on Mon May 02, 2011 2:03 am

I might be leaning a bit on the 4th wall. But it definitely seems like something the Raiths would do, since they do have a whole thing with media. The porn industry, Bram Stoker...this is just an extrapolation. A very cool extrapolation.

EDIT: Also, I miss Lash. I want her back, dammit!
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  Cracklord on Mon May 02, 2011 2:08 am

... You know what? Just for that, I'm going to make her joke she'll approve of his divorce (remember, need one more signatory) if he signs over the rights to his life story.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  industrious on Mon May 02, 2011 2:09 am

Which wouldn't be a good joke, since Nicodemus hates people knowing his life story. He kills the people who take down his life story, remember?

Also, I could have far worse jokes. Like Nicodemus and the Magical Flying Train or having him read The Dark Tower.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  Cracklord on Mon May 02, 2011 2:24 am

Remember that, do you? I must say, his lack of a magical flying train made my appreciation of Death Masks that much less. And it really is time he got over Jesus making a fool of him in the bible. It's not like he got drunk and did dumb shit at a party or whatever.

As to my suggestion, I thought we were still talking about who would play his part. I'll retract that.
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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  Colesign on Mon May 02, 2011 8:57 am

Eh, I'm a hopeless Dresden Files Fanboy, and let's leave it at that.

...anyways, I'm thinking that in order to play my characters without the participation of Sean, I'll assume that certain things happen in order to get Sanya and Bartholomew on the right track...to mystery.

Then when Sean returns, we can jump back in time a bit, and do some flashbacks.

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Re: The Dresden Files: Caught in the Undertow

Post  Cracklord on Mon May 02, 2011 8:39 pm

Amazingly, I preferred it when the main character was portrayed as an intelligent and unconventional figure struggling against a range of enemies, none of whom were really outside his weight-class too much, while trying to avoid the attention of the heavy weights. Rather then what we have to deal with now, where he and his friends are assumed to be able to do whatever the plot demands, and Dresden is absolutely infallible.
I mean, the White Court has been established as the weakest of the vampires physically and magically, which is why they are all subtle. So how come Thomas is suddenly able to fight dozens of red Court Vampires on even footing? Answer? Because apparently, they are all much too stupid to use their powers. The Eebs were the most threatening part of the book. That's right. Too low ranking nobles were portrayed as more of a threat then the entire Red Court mobilized for war. Because apparently their lord is likewise too stupid to use his powers. Also, gods have gone from being stronger then Mab (Proven Guilty) to weaker then most demons have been portrayed, and we get a plot that even the most megalomaniacal comic book villain would see was a waste of resources played by the Court. What a stupid plan. What an amazingly stupid plan. It beggars belief that any of the characters in on it could have survived as long as they did. Rather then create a thing like that, in short the only weapon that can actually kill you, why not use your army for what armies are for? I'm fairly sure the twelve gods you have on leashes would be more then capable of dealing with Ebernezar if it means that much to you.
The best part of that whole book (Erlking nonwithstanding) was the scene were Tilly points out that if it was terrorists rather then vampires, the whole thing would read like a crappy B movie. And you know what? He was absolutely right. Changes war not just bad, it undid all the good work the earlier books had done.

So yeah. I'm barely able to bring myself to read the next one. Maybe he'll surprise me.
But I still like the setting, so here I am.
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